Grandiloquence
and
“three days and three nights”
In discussion with
Gerhard Ebersöhn
25 05 25
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
http://www.thelordsday.wordpress.com
Grandiloquence
and “three days and three nights”.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=82235
Rstrats:
Whenever the three
days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a
"discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue
that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I
wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase "x"
days and "x"nights was ever used in the first century or before when
it didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts
of the "x" nights?
DarrellC:
Sure [Cut]
Strats:
I don't see where
the link provides the writing requested in the OP. I wonder if you might
explain why you think that it does?
Billwald:
Don't you
"True Believers" ever tire of picking the fly specks out of the
pepper?
Chowmah:
It was Jesus who spoke
of the 3 days AND 3 nights
JOHN 11 [9] Jesus
answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he
stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.[10] But if a man walk
in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
And He knew how
many hours were in a day
Winman:
I have changed my
view on this over the years. What I now believe is this;
Jesus was
crucified on a Thursday, and was placed in the grave
before sunset.
This is the first day.
Thursday evening
(night) is the first night. To the Jew this was Friday.
There were two
Sabbaths this week, this was the first Sabbath.
Friday is the
second day.
Friday evening is
the second night. To the Jew this is Saturday and the normal Sabbath. This was
the second Sabbath this week.
Saturday is the
third day.
Saturday evening
is the third night. Sunday to the Jew.
Jesus rose from
the dead sometime Saturday evening (Sat./Sun.) before sunrise.
This gives you
three days and three nights.
GE:
It is GREAT you had
the honesty and courage to change your views! God bless you for it!
Will you be
prepared to change them again and further?
Because your
change to a Thursday Crucifixion is or was most noble; but that is not where
the Holy Spirit through the testimony of the Scriptures will end with you, if
my own experience meant anything, for also with me, the BIG CHANGE started with
the Fifth Day of the week Suffering and Death of Christ; but it was only the
first development.
Rstrats:
Chowmah and
Winman,
Do either of you
have any information with regard to the documentation asked for in the OP?
Billwald:
What kind of
documentation do you deem acceptable?
Rstrats:
Any writing from
the first century that uses the phrase "x" days
AND "x"
nights where at least parts of the "x’ days AND at least
parts of the
"x" nights are absolutely not included
GE:
'days' and
'nights' are separated sunset. Before sunset is day's ending; after
sunset is day's
beginning.
The Greek NT uses
the word and concept of '[heh] opsia', “EVENING” for day's beginning.
Now EVERY of the “three
days” that each consisted of “night” and “day”, is definitively indicated and
demarcated in the Gospels “ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES” ---the
passover-Scriptures.
First, for an
extra source as to the significance of the “evening” for having been the
beginning of days, the following:
‘Opse’, ‘laat’ in
Hermas
Hermas Similitudes
9,11,1-2,6,7
The maidens said
to me
Legousi
moi hai parthenoi
Today the shepherd
is not coming here
Sehmeron
ho poimehn hohde ouk erchetai
What then, said I,
shall I do?
Ti
oun phehmi poiehsoh eghoo?
Until late [
Mexris
opse perimeinon auton
and if he come he
will speak to you
kai
ean elthehi lalehsei meta sou
and if he come not
you shall remain here with us until he come
ean
de meh elthehi meneis meth’ hehmohn hohde heohs erchetai
I said to them, I
will wait for him till late [KL “evening”]
Legoh
autais, Ekdeksomai auton heohs opse
but if he come not
I will go away home
ean
de meh elthehi apeleusomai eis ton oikon
and in the morning
return.
kai
prohï epanehksoh
[Playing until …]
when evening came
I wished to go home
opsias
de genomenehs ehthelon eis ton oikon hupagein
but they did not
let me [KL “go”] but kept me
hai
de ouk aphehkan alla kateschon me
and I stayed with
them the night
kai
emeina met’ autohn tehn nukta
[Prayed and slept
…]
and I stayed there
until the morrow
kai
emeina ekei mechri tehs aurion
Rstrats:
I'm curious why
you quoted the comment that I made in post #10 when your comments in your post
# 12 had nothing to do with it?
GE:
You asked for a
'document' from the second century. Hermas is one.
But I have been
watching you for years. You're a difficult customer to please ... so I write to
keep myself happy.
Rstrats:
Firstly, I didn't
ask for documentation from the second century. I asked for documentation from
the first century or before.
Secondly, yourr
"Hermas" quote didn't provide an example of a phrase being used which
specified a certain number of days and a certain number of nights where at
least parts of the certain number of days AND at least parts of the certain
number of nights were absolutely not included.
GE:
Alright then ...
from the FIRST century ... or before ... document(s) wherein days and nights
are found. --- By the way, I don't understand <<_not_ included>>.
.
Rstrats:
By "not
included" I mean "doesn't contain".
Perhaps someone
new looking in will have some documentation.
GE:
I take you mean
Matthew 12:40 and Jonas 2, the words, “three days and three nights”.
Well, here they
are from just about every angle in all four Gospels,
Abib 14, Wednesday
night and Thursday day = Fifth Day ....
1A) HERE BEGINS
the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” –
the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Jesus
ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell)
:–
Mk14:12/17;
Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.
1B) HERE BEGINS
the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” –
the passover–Scriptures :–
in which Jesus was
delivered and crucified :–
Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14
1C) HERE is the
LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the
Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Jesus DIED
and was deserted by all :–
Mk15:37–41;
Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30
. . . . . .
Abib 15, Thursday
night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....
2A) HERE BEGINS
the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
the day whereon
Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
Mk15:42/Mt27:57,
Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.
2B) HERE is the
NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Joseph
begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law –
undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:–
Mk15:43–46a;
Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40
2C) HERE is the
LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to
the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures
:–
when Joseph and
Nicodemus laid the body and closed the tomb; and men and women left for home
:–
Mk15:46b–47;
Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42
. . . . . .
.
Abib 16, Friday
night and Saturday day = Seventh Day Sabbath....
3A) HERE BEGINS
the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
THAT JESUS WOULD
RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
Lk23:56b
3B) HERE is the
MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
Pilate ordered a
guard “for the third day” :–
Mt27:62–66
3C) HERE is “IN
the Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”,
“according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
First Sheaf Wave
Offering Before the LORD :–
Mt28:1–4.
__________________________________________________
Abib 17, Saturday
night and Sunday day = First Day ....
4A) HERE begins
the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth day of the passover season) :–
that Jesus WOULD
APPEAR on :–
Mk16:1, “When the
Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....”
4B) HERE is the
EVENING of this day,
Jn20:1–10 Mary
sees the DOOR STONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been
OPENED);
4C) HERE is the
NIGHT of this day,
Lk24:1–10
“DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve
the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY);
Mk16:2–8 “very
early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled
terrified and told NO ONE”.
4D) Here is
sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
Jn20:11f, Mk16:9
“Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early
(sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary ....”
Mt28:5–10 “The
angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell ....
Jesus met them” (after sunrise).
Mt28:11–15 Guard
to high priests.
Biblicist:
You might look at
the following site for the inclusive principle: [Cut]
Rstrats:
As regards the
Jewish practice of inclusive reckoning and of counting any part of a day as a
whole day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to
"days" to yield the phrase "3 days AND 3 nights" it
normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where
"day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and
"night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the
history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical
documentation that the phrase " 3 days AND 3 nights" was a unique
first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different
than what the phrase means in English.. If you have such documentation, I would
very much like to see it.
BTW, why can’t
Matthew 12:40 be accepted as a literal statement? What is there in Scripture
that makes it absolutely necessary to find a way to make the 3 days AND 3
nights mean something other than at least parts of 3 light periods and least
parts of 3 dark periods?
Since it's been
awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.
GE:
I said before
sunset is day's ending.
After sunset “it
had become EVENING already” and 'opsia' is the word for “evening”. Cf. Mark
15:42 et al ---14 instances, refer paragraph 5.1.3. page 24
further, http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books...Burial%20B.pdf
... if 'someone
new' will understand what you want, perhaps.
Strats, here is a
little sugar sachet wisdom that may benefit you,
[I believe the
author is / was a renowned Swiss natural healing specialist or something,
Pierre Schmidt. I hope he cured attitude as well.]
“Truth always
expresses itself with the greatest simplicity.”
.
Discon:
True enough. But
if the "truth" for a culture is to count any part of a day as being
inclusive of a fixed set of days, then that would be the simplest expression
for that culture, would it not?
Example: "I
will pay you five sheckles to deliver 20 ephods of wheat in three days,"
saying this at noon today and meaning that, because his culture counts today as
the first day, he is expecting his wheat on Tuesday anytime after sunrise.
GE:
I don't understand
-- after decades and decades of attempting -- what 'inclusive reckoning' has to
do with the 'God-given and therefore eschatological imperative whole and
wholeness' [Lohmeyer's words] of Christ's “three days” of “three days and three
nights”, “on the third day” of which, He, “according to the Scriptures, ROSE
FROM THE DEAD” again!???
Discon:
Calm down, no need
to shout.
Now ... have you
considered the need for Jesus to have spoken in a manner that the people to
whom He brought the message could understand within the mores and syntax of
their culture? The Bible wasn't written specifically to the 21st Century believer,
his/her culture, socioeconomic perspective, or understanding. Fortunately it
translates well to our overall understanding, but the Bible was written to
First Century man/woman. It is to that culture, socioeconomic perspective and
understanding the words and syntax had the most accurate meaning.
We witness the
truth of this through the debates over First Century idioms and thought
clusters that don't translate quite as well as others. Therefore, we debate
"three days and three nights" from our perspective, when it was
clearly written to the First Century perspective and their understanding of a
partial day as being included in a statement of any quantity of days that is
set
apart as to
specifics by a cardinal number.
GE:
I have no problem
with your statement.
But Bible
translators of today do have a problem with it. They believe in translating the
Scriptures as should it have been written in the idiom of modern man and
according to his understanding of the world.
Best example is
the 'translation' of Scripture passages to show Jesus' death and burial were on
the same day of 'Friday' and his resurrection was on 'Sunday' because 'that's
what everybody knows'.
Which the
translators THINK they have accomplished to perfection.
Discon:
That is because
you don't want to understand. The Bible was not dictated by God, it was
inspired by God. Men wrote in local colloquialisms and idioms of their day.
Strats:
And that is why I
started this thread - to see if there is any writing which shows a phrase
stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used
in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at
least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of
each one of the specific number of nights. So far no one has come up with
any.
Discon:
I thought I had,
but I don't see it here on this thread, unless I overlooked it. But I'll
provide the proof for you now.
Luke 13, NASB
32 And He said to
them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out
demons and perform
cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'
That is from the
mouth of Jesus Himself. Do you understand what
He is saying? It
was on Friday, one week before the crucifixion. Jesus was going to Jerusalem on
Sunday, what is incorrectly known as the "Triumphal Entry," given
that the very people celebrating His arrival were the ones crying for His
crucifixion by the day before the following Sabbath. He said he was working
"today and tomorrow" -- Friday and Saturday -- and "the third
day" -- Sunday -- He would arrive in
And by the way, I
don't think it is "coincidence" He made this statement when and how
He did. It was a mile marker for us, indicating the day of His crucifixion, and
the day of His resurrection, proving He fulfilled His statement that He would
"be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Three
days, "three days and three nights," "in three days," and
"on the third day" all mean the same thing.
Rstrats:
And don't forget
the ones that say "after three days'.
Discon:
Matthew said, in
v. 4:2, Jesus was in the desert "forty days and forty nights." Mark
and Luke simply said "forty days." Why don't you question whether
Matthew was saying something different? I guess you missed the part where I
said several differently worded phrases regarding "three days" or
"three days and three nights" are saying the exact same thing.
Rstrats:
In order for you to
think that, I guess you missed the part where I said that you forgot to include
the ones that say "after three days". At any rate, what is your point
insofar as it applies to my request
in the OP?
Because Mark and
Luke don't preclude at least a part of each one of the forty days and at least
a part of each on of the forty nights.
Discon:
I made that point
a few posts back. Didn't you read it?
Rstrats:
Someone new
looking in may know of some writing.
Discon:
The answer you're
looking for is plainly represented in post #71. If you don't want to read it or
believe it, that's your problem.
Rstrats:
I addressed your
post #71 in my posts #72 and #73. Nowhere in your post #71 did you provide any
writing that specified a specific number of days and/or a specific number of
nights when they absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one
of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific
number of nights. It simply isn't there.
Discon:
So in other words,
no matter how much proof is provided, and no matter how much it is shown that
"three days and three nights" is of interchangeable usage with any
other form of "three days," you won't believe it.
Rstrats:
I'm fine with
that, as long as the "three days" include 3 nights as the Messiah
said they would. So if "three days" is interchangeable with
"three days and three nights" that means that "three days"
has to involve three daytimes and three night times.
You have not
provided any proof that Matthew 12:40 is using
common idiomatic
language of the first century.
.
Discon:
Utter nonsense.
I've repeatedly shown that it was so not just in the New Testament, but
throughout the Old Testament. Both Exodus 19:10 and Luke 13:32 absolutely
prove the use of the phrase to mean portions of days as being among the
count of days. The litany of verses I gave you proving that Jesus "would
arise on the third day" is incontrovertible. They are not trumped by a
couple uses of "three days and three nights," particularly in light
of the fact that both phrases are used to describe the exact same future event.
Yet in arrogance
you simply don't want to accept the truth. You nitpick everything to death to
no end nor for apparent reason other than argument's sake. Done here, done with
you. God bless.
Rstrats:
OK, it's apparent
that you don't know of any writing as requested in the OP. Perhaps someone new
looking in will know of some.
Matthew 12:40 has
the Messiah saying that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3
nights. The 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates say that He is using
common idiomatic language where 3 nights actually means 2 nights. If it's a
common idiom, you'd think that there would be at least one example where that
absolutely had to be the case. That's what I'm looking for and so far you
haven't provided any proof of that.
Discon:
You won't believe
it despite such evidence as…
Rstrats:
I assume you mean
Luke 24:21 which indicates that the crucifixion could not have taken place any
later than the 5th day of the week.
Discon:
…Luke
24:21, NASB
21 "But we
were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem
Note that "it
is the third day," late in the afternoon, and Jesus is already walking on
the road to Emmaus with Cleopas and his friend. "It is the third
day" and He is resurrected! How much more evidence do you need? But, even
that, you will not believe.
Rstarts:
I would ask you to
quote where I've said that the Messiah wasn't resurrected on the 3rd day.
Discon:
Even with passages
such as Matt. 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Luke 24:7, 21, 46; 1 Cor. 15:4, all of which
say "on the third day He will raised." It is OBVIOUS that
"three days and three nights" is interchangeable -- i.e., means the
same thing -- as "on the third day," "after three days,"
"in three days," etc. But you don't want to believe it.
Rstarts:
Fine. Thanks for
sharing that. Now I don't have to continue posting to this thread.
GE:
Yes! Please
<<<Note that "it is the
third day," late in the afternoon,>>> for what a GROSS
MORONIC LIE it is!
Discon:
If you don't like
it, then make something up. That appears to be what you've done anyway. But you
will still be wrong.
GE:
Disconnected, do
you honestly believe everyone is also disconnected like you are?
Buddy, there are
people walking around who are connected still.
Discon:
Well, guess I've
been put in my place. Heavens, such large letters and forceful language,
coupled with not-so-clever puns on my member name, will always convince me
I'm wrong.
[/sarcasm]
I'll just say,
"Have a nice life. God bless."
GE:
Besides large
letters, what else have you found offensive or just plain wrong or not
Scriptural?
By the way, I
heard the NT was first written in capital letters. No wonder it is so
convincing.
Do you really
believe Luke 24:21b “TODAY” -- that was “on the First Day of the week”,
'Sunday' -- which was “the third day SINCE / AFTER / AWAY FROM these things
were done” -- “SINCE these things” : “SINCE the rulers DELIVERED Him and
CRUCIFIED Him” -- was 'THE third day according to the Scriptures Christ ROSE
from the dead” on?!
Then you are
disconnected for sooth!!!!
RevMitchel:
You need to stay
away from childish language making fun of someones user name. Time for some adult
conversation.
GE:
The reverend Rev
Mitchell [-not rugby's],
All you could find
reverend enough to comment on, was a bit of fun. but this, …
Because “on the
First Day of the week—TODAY” -- 'Sunday' – was in fact “the third day SINCE /
AFTER / AWAY FROM =DISCONNECTED FROM these things happened”—”these things”,
namely, “how the rulers DELIVERED Him and CRUCIFIED Him”.
Sunday was the
third day SINCE they crucified Him and He had died;
Saturday was the
second day SINCE they crucified Him and He had died;
Friday was the
first day SINCE they crucified Him and He had died;
Thursday was the
day THAT they crucified Him and He had died ON.
THEREFORE Luke
24:21b implies that Jesus
DIED on the Fifth
Day of the week -- 'Thursday'; was
BURIED on the
Sixth Day of the week -- “The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” --
'Friday'; and
ROSE from the
dead:- quote: “ON THE SABBATH” Matthew 28:1
…is too ridiculous
for reverent respect?!
That is how and
why the THREE DAYS OF THE LORD never will receive due reverence or honour, but
to the
“The LORD said
unto My LORD...”:
“The LORD hath
torn, and He will heal; the LORD hath smitten, and He will bind up.
After two days the
LORD will REVIVE : IN THE THIRD DAY THE LORD WILL RAISE UP AND LIVE IN HIS
LIGHT.”
Hosea 6:1-2
“Then shall we
know it if we follow and strive TO KNOW THE LORD”, verse 3.
True knowledge and
understanding of the LORD and of the LORD'S ways -- of “HIS GOING FORTH” and “COMING
unto us” -- is to know and understand both the LORD and the “three days”. The
one cannot and may not oppose the other.
People who
belittle any aspect or feature of the Revelation of
God in Christ as
<<nit-picking>> ARE TOO FULL OF
THEMSELVES TO TAKE
IN ANYTHING OF GOD.
Alcot:
This &$^*(
again, huh? Do you deny Matthew 20:19 where Jesus
said he will be
raised up on the third day?
Eli:
What about 3
nights?
Did Jesus spend 3
nights in the tomb?
Rstrats:
I'm afraid that I
don't see what that has to do with my request in the OP. Perhaps you could
elaborate?
GE:
Here is your OP,
Rstrats,
<<<Whenever the three days and three nights of
Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day
crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting
any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that
shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever used
in the first century or before when it didn’t include at least parts of the
"x" days and at least parts of the "x" nights?>>>
I am - for one -
too simple a man to understand what you say; it's not SIMPLE enough for me.
First.
Next, WHAT, is the
TRUTH which you want to explain or establish or confirm?
Rstrats:
Do you have any
documentation that shows an example from the first century or before regarding
a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well
as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutey doesn't/can't
include at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at
least parts of
each one of the specific number of nights?
.
GE:
That <<<'the phrase "x" days and
"x"nights was in fact used in the first century or before', but did
'not include' any parts of the
"x"
days' or 'at least parts of the "x" nights'>>>?
Please forgive me,
but I cannot make head or tail of what you mean. I can at best guess that
you meant, Was the phrase from Matthew 12 and Jonas 2, “three days and three
nights” used in Christian documents in the first century or before?
And the answer is
of course, yes! In Matthew 12:40 and Jonas 1:17.
Last, So I gave
you the New Testament passages that exactly define and make clear which those “three
days and three nights” that comprised the “three days” OF THE WEEK to which
Jesus referred, HISTORICALLY, were. the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh
Days-of-the-week.
Clarity and
simplicity, dear Strats. Just simplicity and clarity ... as Schmidt said in
which TRUTH expresses itself. May I add, simplicity, clarity and tolerance or
patience towards the simpleminded like me.
All right -- the
OP was yours; so I suppose I must keep quiet.
Rstrats:
I have no idea
what that means. I wonder if you might explain?
GE:
Sorry, Strats, I
forgot.
Winman, can we
hear from you again, please?
Rstrats:
What is it that
you forgot, GE?
BTW, you have a
question directed to you
GE:
If I haven't
forgotten I would have known, _r_strats, sorry man ...
Rstrats:
Maybe someone new
looking in will know of some writing.
...Anyone?...
RevMitchell:
How many forums on
the internet are you going to post this on?
Rstrats:
As many as I can
find, or until someone comes up with the requested writing . Any particular
reason for asking?
GE:
Why request it
from others -- who obviously do not have it or they would have given it to you
–
Rstrats:
But someone new
looking in may know of some writing.
GE:
-- WHILE YOU HAVE
IT YOURSELF ALL THE TIME OR YOU WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED ABOUT IT?!
Rstrats:
If I knew of some
writing I wouldn't be asking for it.
Saturneptune:
This is the most
disfunctional thread I have ever read. One would think if Jesus were buried
Thursday, Friday, and Saturday instead of Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, it
would change the nature of our salvation.
GE:
I suppose you mean
<disfunctional> topic or
subject.
Well, <<if Jesus were buried Thursday, Friday, and
Saturday instead of Friday, Saturday, and Sunday>>, it would be
equally gross ignorance or lies and therefore most definitely would <<change the nature of our salvation>>.
Rstrats:
How so?
Maybe a rewording
of the OP will make it a little more clear:
Whenever the three
days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th
day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for
counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation
that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a
specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it
absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific
number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of
nights?
GE:
RStrats, you all
by yourself are a practice session in patience for others!
Yes, I believe
<<they>> do <<frequently
argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole
day.>>
Of course it's
nonsense from pettifogger grammarians.
Therefore why take
it so serious? It's rubbish man!
The topic of this
thread being - or is supposed to be “Three days and three nights”, how about
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_boneyard
Quote: Aircraft
bone-yard is a term for a storage area for aircraft that are retired from
service. Most aircraft at bone-yards are either kept for storage or turned into
scrap metal. Deserts, such as those in the South Western United States, are
good locations for boneyards since the dry conditions reduce corrosion.QE
I suppose
therefore the date and day entered in the logbook of each of these ‘stored’,
‘retired’ and ‘kept’ airplanes will the ‘BONE-DAY’ of each?!
“…to be turned
into scrap…” in fact!
But of Jesus
Christ it was written, that “being delivered by the DETERMINATE counsel and
foreknowledge / providence / CARE of God—God having loosed the pains of death
[in his service in life] … foresaw that (He) should not be moved [away ‘for
scrap’, but that] (his) flesh shall rest in hope [of restoration /
resurrection]. Because Thou wilt not leave my soul / life in hell [of ‘service’
/ ‘action’ in “the SUFFERING / PASSOVER of Yahweh”] or allow thine Holy
One—[“speaking of …” His Grave]—to SEE CORRUPTION / undergo dissembling of
“FLESH” / or ‘severance’ or ‘braking’ of “BONES”. But God seeing this before,
spake of the RESURRECTION of Christ [“on the third day”], that his soul was not
left in hell [of faithful SUFFERING IN LIFE], neither his flesh did see
corruption [under faithful WATCH of God in the GRAVE].”
“According to the
Scriptures” : “THREE DAYS” :
1, IN LIVE HELL,
Abib 14;
2, IN DEATH IN
GRAVE [ ‘bone-yard’]—‘motionlessness’ / “not being moved”, Abib 15;
3, IN REST IN
“RESURRECTION, FROM, the dead”, Abib 16—“SANCTUARY CLEANSED” 2Chronicles
29:17c.
Rstrats:
I probably should
have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the
6th day of the week, and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it
is using common Jewish idiomatic language where 3 nights actually means 2
nights.
Since it's been
awhile, someone new looking in my know of some writing.
GE:
Strats, it has
been YEARS now that you are searching for <<some writing>> no one knows which.
I ask you, is the
ONLY <writing>, the Scriptures,
not good enough for whatever you are looking for?
Rstrats:
Scripture will be
fine. And I say in the OP what I am looking for.
GE:
Re: Rstrats:
<<<Whenever the three days and
three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with
6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for
counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation
that shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever
used in the first century or before when it didn’t include at least parts of
the "x" days and at least parts of
the
"x" nights?>>>
No, I am sorry but
I cannot fathom what you mean or what you ask.
Rstrats:
I clarified the OP
in post #36.
GE:
No, I'm just too
weak-minded, I admit.
All, the
Scriptures, are clear about, is that Christ was NOT crucified but BURIED the
<6th day>.
Rstrats:
I said in post #41
that the OP should have been addressed to 6th day of the week crucifixion
proponents.
GE:
<<The three days and three nights of Matthew
12:40>> most definitely is NOT <<a Jewish idiom>> but it is the “three days” “the third day
according to the Scriptures” of which, was the day that “Christ rose from the
dead” on.
The “three days
and three nights” <included>
the God-given and therefore eschatological imperative WHOLE AND WHOLENESS
[Lohmeyer] of the “THREE days thick darkness” of “the plague (that) was upon
Him” in “Suffering-Passover-of-Yahweh” and “death-exceeding sorrowfulness of
soul”.
Alcot:
Lets say today is
Sunday , July 1st. - and you say I will see you next Sat. Do you mean Sat, July
6th or July 13?
Discon:
Not the same thing,
but I will see you on July 6th.
But, for proof of
how the Jewish people counted "today" as the first of three days,
when using the phrase "three days and three nights," I give you this:
Luke 13, NASB
32 And He said to
them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures
today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'
Rstrats:
Nothing in that
scripture is said about a specific number of daytimes or a specific number of
nighttimes as requested in the OP.
Discon:
Note, in this statement,
Jesus said He would do these miracles "today and tomorrow," and then
counted the day after tomorrow as "the third day."
Seems pretty
definitive to me. But there is more proof of the historical use of today as
part of a three-day time period.
Exodus 19 10 The
LORD also said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today
and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready
for the third day, for on the third day the LORD will come down on
The culture
counted part of "today" as the first of any number of days they
named. That is fact that cannot be denied.
GE:
You turn a blind
eye to the real facts. You only, act the fool.
Rstrats:
To whom is you
post directed?
Alcot:
Anybody, including
you.
Rstrats:
OK, thanks.
Alcot:
Do you deny
Matthew 20:19 where Jesus said he will be raised up on the third day?
Rstrats:
No, I do not deny
that Matthew 20:19 has the Messiah saying that He will be raised up on the
third day. What is you point insofar as it is responsive to my request in the
OP?
Alcot:
That if he was not
raised for "3 days and 3 nights," it was then the 4th day (or later)
that he was raised, not "ON the third day."
GE:
“I deliver unto
you WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT which I also received:
How that Christ :
1)
“DIED for our
sins …
“according to the
SCRIPTURES ...
“the very first
day ye shall REMOVE leaven [of life] …
“ye shall CUT /
REAP the corners of the land …
“LIFT UP …
“BRING First Sheaf
…
“ye shall KILL the
passover …
“on the fourteenth
day of the First Month”;
“How that Christ :
2)
“was BURIED ...
“according to the
SCRIPTURES ...
“THE FIRST NIGHT
…
“seven days
unleavened bread ye shall EAT …
“that which remain
…
“the next day ye
shall burn with fire …
“THAT DAY …
“THE
WHOLE-DAY-BONE-DAY …
“the fifteenth day
of the First Month”;
“How that Christ :
3)
“ROSE again
“according to the
SCRIPTURES …
“THE THIRD
DAY …
“RESTED UP AGAIN
HIS NAME :
“
“THE SANCTUARY
...
“CLEANSED …
“FIRST SHEAF
OFFERING WAVED BEFORE THE LORD …
“on the sixteenth
day of the First Month”.
Strats:
And your point
would be as it pertains to the request in the OP?
GE:
I told you I don't
understand your OP.
Rstrats:
The request: I
wonder if anyone knows of any writing which shows a phrase stating a specific
number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used in the first
century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of
each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the
specific number of nights?
What specifically
do you not understand?
GE:
I think I
understand the “three days”, being MEANT to be understood; it is not in the
Word for nothing.
If this is a quiz
game and you wanted me to play, I would guess you mean Matthew 12:40.
Rstrats:
That's an issue
for another topic. This one is only concerned with the request in the OP.
GE:
Unfortunately I
find the game boring.
Rstrats:
You have a
question directed to you in post #61.
GE:
If it is nothing
you have to say, please don't say it!
Thanks.
But I have a
strong feeling you are the one who doesn't understand the “three days and three
nights” spoken of in Matthew 12:40.
So, thank me for
explaining to you the “Three days thick darkness” of Jesus' “SUFFERING-PASSOVER
OF YAHWEH”
All these
Scriptures are in PERFECT AGREEMENT in every respect :
.
Abib 14, Wednesday
night and Thursday day = Fifth Day ....
1A) HERE BEGINS
the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” –
the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Jesus
ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell)
:–
Mk14:12/17;
Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.
1B) HERE BEGINS
the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” –
the passover–Scriptures :–
in which Jesus was
delivered and crucified :–
Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14
1C) HERE is the
LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the
Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Jesus DIED
and was deserted by all :–
Mk15:37–41;
Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30
. . . . . .
Abib 15, Thursday
night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....
2A) HERE BEGINS
the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
the day whereon Joseph
WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
Mk15:42/Mt27:57,
Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.
2B) HERE is the
NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Joseph
begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law –
undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:–
Mk15:43–46a;
Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40
2C) HERE is the
LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to
the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Joseph and
Nicodemus laid the body and closed the tomb; and men and women left for home
:–
Mk15:46b–47;
Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42
. . . . . .
.
Abib 16, Friday
night and Saturday day = Seventh Day Sabbath....
3A) HERE BEGINS
the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
THAT JESUS WOULD
RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
Lk23:56b
3B) HERE is the
MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
Pilate ordered a
guard “for the third day” :–
Mt27:62–66
3C) HERE is “IN
the Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”,
“according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
First Sheaf Wave
Offering Before the LORD :–
Mt28:1–4.
__________________________________________________
Abib 17, Saturday
night and Sunday day = First Day ....
4A) HERE begins
the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth day of the passover season) :–
that Jesus WOULD
APPEAR on :–
Mk16:1, “When the
Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....”
4B) HERE is the
EVENING of this day,
Jn20:1–10 Mary
sees the DOOR STONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been
OPENED);
4C) HERE is the
NIGHT of this day,
Lk24:1–10
“DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve
the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY);
Mk16:2–8 “very
early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled
terrified and told NO ONE”.
4D) Here is
sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
Jn20:11f, Mk16:9
“Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early
(sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary ....”
Mt28:5–10 “The
angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell ....
Jesus met them” (after sunrise).
Mt28:11–15 Guard
to high priests.
USE BIBLES OF
BEFORE THE TWENTIETH CENTURY – they are not as wangled as the later ones. And
compare those ancient translations with the modern ones to see the truth of the
older ones!
Eli:
Which night else
than Friday night and Saturday night did Jesus sleep in the tomb if he died on
Friday?
Why does Matthew
28:1 mention the plural Sabbaths (????????)?
If Jesus died on
Friday and was resurrected on Sunday morning.
He could have
never slept in the tomb for 3 nights.
He spent Friday
night and Saturday night.
If Jesus died on
Friday and was buried on Friday, and was resurrected on Sunday before dawning,
Jesus could have
spent 30 minutes of daytime of Friday in the tomb.
He spent 12 hours
fully in the tomb on Saturday
Jesus could spend
no daytime of Sunday because he was resurrected before dawn on Sunday.
Therefore Jesus
would have spent 1 day+1/24 daytime in the tomb, which is far less than 3 nites
and 3 days in Mt 12:40.
Actually He could
have spent no daytime in the tomb on Friday, because it became the nighttime as
soon as He was buried on Friday.
Then He could
spend only one daytime plus 2 night times if He died on Friday.
39 But he answered
and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a
sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the
prophet: 40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the
whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of
the earth. Mt 12
Rstrats, I think
most likely the documentation you seek doesn't exist.
Rstrats:
I think you may be
right. I've asked the question on a number of forums and have yet to receive
any examples.
Kyred:
While straining
out gnats and splitting hairs over ‘three days and three nights’ you (and
others) may be overlooking the real gist of this passage, which was simply ‘the
sign of Jonah the prophet to that particular evil and adulterous
generation’ that murdered Christ.
The Jews judged
Him to be worthy of death, but God judged righteously and annulled their
judgment by raising Him from the dead. Take note of the redundancy of the
message from the Comforter in convicting that generation of Jews of the
crime; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD:
Acts 2:
4 And they
were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other
tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter,
standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them,
saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known
unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of
Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto
you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of
you, even as ye yourselves know; 23 him, being delivered up by the determinate
counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did
crucify and slay: 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the
house of
40 And with many
other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from
this crooked generation.
Acts 3:
12 And when Peter
saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of
15 and killed
the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are
witnesses.
23 And it shall
be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be
utterly destroyed from among the people.
Acts 4:
8 Then Peter,
filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and
elders, 9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an
impotent man, by what means this man is made whole; 10 be it known unto
you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ
of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth
this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 5:
27 And when they
had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked
them, 28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and
behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend
to bring this man`s blood upon us. 29 But Peter and the apostles answered and
said, We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised
up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree. 31 Him did God exalt
with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked
and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as
your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the
prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed
before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become
betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received
the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being
full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of
God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 and
said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing
on the right hand of God.
Acts 7
Acts 10:
39 And we are
witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews,
and in
Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood
up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God,
hearken:
27 For they
that dwell in
for as Jonah
was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so
shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the
earth. Mt 12:40
These "for
as/so shall" passages are clear, invaluable pointers given us to the rich
types & allegories found in scripture. Look at Jonah 2 as in the same vein
as a Messianic Psalm:
1 Then Jonah
prayed unto Jehovah his God out of the fish`s belly.
2 And he said, I
called by reason of mine affliction unto Jehovah, And he answered me; Out of
the belly of Sheol cried I, And thou heardest my voice. 3 For thou didst cast
me into the depth, in the heart of the seas, And the flood was round about me;
All thy waves and thy billows passed over me. 4 And I said, I am cast out from
before thine eyes; Yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters
compassed me about, even to the soul; The deep was round about me; The weeds
were wrapped about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The
earth with its bars closed upon me for ever: Yet hast thou brought up my life
from the pit, O Jehovah my God. 7 When my soul fainted within me, I remembered
Jehovah; And my prayer came in unto thee, into thy holy temple. 8 They that
regard lying vanities Forsake their own mercy. 9 But I will sacrifice unto thee
with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that which I have vowed. Salvation
is of Jehovah. 10 And Jehovah spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah
upon the dry land. Jonah 2
.
Rstrats:
Since it has again
been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion
took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is
using common first
century idiomatic
language will know of some writing.
GE:
Matthew 12:40 uses
NO <<idiomatic language>>
Matthew 12:40 uses
figurative language in one phrase only, “in the HEART OF THE EARTH”.
The phrase “three
days and three nights” is literal language.
Targus:
If the phrase
"three days and three nights" means three 12 hour periods of day and
three 12 hour periods of night...
And Jesus was
buried shortly before sunset...
Then it follow
that Jesus would have to have risen shortly before sunset.
Is that what
Scripture tells us?
No.
So it follows that
"three days and three nights" does not mean three 12 hour periods of
day and three 12 hour periods of night and the OP request becomes meaningless.
Rstrats:
Targus, You've
misread the OP. It is not asking for three 12 hour periods of day and three 12
hour periods of night.
GE:
Re: <<<If the phrase "three days and three
nights" means three 12 hour periods of day and three 12 hour periods of
night...>>>
Except when Jesus
entered into his Father’s Kingdom and onto its battlefield the kingdom of
darkness, He never spoke of ‘hours’ with reference to the “three days” He
several times referred to.
Re: <<<Jesus was buried shortly before sunset>>>
Joseph finished to
bury the body of Jesus “by the time of the Jews’ preparations to begin” John 19:42—that
was, “mid-afternoon the Sabbath nearing” Luke 23:54.
“Mid-afternoon” is
THREE HOURS BEFORE <sunset>;
not, <<<shortly before sunset>>>.
“Joseph arrived”
Luke 23:20 and had to wait till the Jews had finished their talks with Pilate
John 19:38, “evening having already begun” Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57, 21 hours
before he finally had closed the grave, 3 p.m.!
Re: <<<Is that what Scripture tells us?>>>
Not <<No>>; but most literally,
certainly, exactly, unambiguous and clearly, YES!!!
Nevertheless, you
are correct that it follows that “three days and three nights” do not
ARBITRARILY <<<mean three 12
hour periods of day and three 12 hour periods of night>>> but THE “three
days” of “three days thick darkness” of “the plague” that “was upon HIM”— the
last two plagues of the Passover-of-Yahweh.
The “three days
and three nights” of the prophet Jonah were the “three days and three nights”
of _no other_ ‘days’ or part of days. They were THE “three days and three
nights” of the God-given and therefore IMPERATIVE eschatological whole and
wholeness of THE “three days”—, “on the third day” of which, “God … ACCORDING
TO THE SCRIPTURES … RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD ON.” 1Corinthians 15:3,4.
TCassidy:
The Jews used a
lunar calendar to determine the exact times of their feast days.
The only year that
even comes close to the bible account of the death, burial, and resurrection of
Christ is 31 AD. In 31 AD the preparation day (John 19:31 & 42) for the
feast of the Passover was on Wednesday. The following day was a special High
Sabbath, the first day of Passover (John 19:31 cf Leviticus 23:6 &
7).
The first day of
Passover was always a special high Sabbath regardless of what day of the week
it fell on (Leviticus 23:6 & 7). The first day of Passover was on 15th day
of the month of Nisan (sometimes called Abib) and corresponds to our
March-April.
The 15th of Nisan,
in 31 AD fell on a Thursday, for the Sabbath that was looming at sundown
Wednesday was not the weekly Sabbath, but the special high Sabbath, the first
day of Passover.
On Friday the
ladies went shopping - to buy the spices for the "embalming" process,
rested on the regular Sabbath, Saturday, and got to the grave "as it began
to dawn toward the first day of the week" or just before sun up on Sunday,
and the tomb was already empty!
Wednesday sundown
through Saturday sundown, 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, and arose after
sundown on what we call Saturday, but what a Jew would call the first day of
the week, or Sunday. Three days and three nights in the tomb (Matthew 12:40).
The Jews
calculated the beginning and ending of a day differently, even among
themselves.
From the writings
of Josephus, the Mishna, and other historic Jewish source literature we learn
that the Jews of northern
The Pharisees, on
the other hand, and those from southern
Now we know from
our knowledge of geography that
So, it is simple
to see that Jesus and the disciples considered Passover (the preparation day)
to have started at sunrise and to have ended at sunrise the next day! The
southern Jews, however, considered the preparation day to begin at sundown.
Therefore, by God's Sovereign design, Jesus could celebrate the Passover with
the disciples, and still be taken for sacrifice at the very time the southern
Jews were sacrificing their lambs.
It is obvious that
when He ate the meal with the disciples, it was purposely done early so they
could enjoy that one last time of fellowship, the Lord's Supper could be
instituted (the Lord's Supper is NOT a Passover Seder, if it were it would only
be done ONCE per year, not "as oft as ye do it) Judas could be identified,
etc.
Eli:
Dr. Cassidy,
Do you have any
source that 15 Abib 31 AD was the thursday ?
GE:
The <source> JOHN 19:31 defines “that day
great day sabbath” of the passover 15 Abib:
“was The
Preparation”—the “Preparation” which the <source< Mark 15:42 defines,
“was The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” --- the Sixth Day of the week,
‘Friday’.
Eli:
First we may have
to determine which date of April by Gregorian calendar the 14th Abib of 31 AD
was.
GE:
What on earth
for?!
Because YOU
beforehand had decided it was the YEAR <<31 AD>>
WHAT, the year <31 AD> FOR?
Because I cannot
have my theory if it's not <31 AD>
and I WILL HAVE MY THEORY because of the <<contradictions between the gospels>>.
Eli:
Sir Robert Anderson
calculated the 69 weeks starting from 14th Nissan of 445BC, then he reached
April 10, 32 AD by calculating 173,880.
I checked the
years and days, and 173,880 and confirmed it is correct.
GE:
You really did …
… You?!
Shucks!
<<173,880 confirmed it is correct>>?!
Amazing!
Very insightful
... ... ... ... shame ...
Eli:
You can just
imagine whatever you like.
FYI, he was the
Director General of British CIA during Queen
Then he compared
with all the data from Bible, Josephus, Herodotus, Zumpt, Clint, etc.
69 weeks means 483
years by prophetic calendar which has 360 days per year, resulting in 483 x 360
days = 173,880
Prophetic year can
be confirmed as we read Noah's ark story in Genesis 6-8.
You may disregard
this if you don't like it!
He referred to
Zumpt, Clinton, Browne, Josephus, Herodotus, Wieseler, Merivale.
As for Passover
and Days of Unleavened Bread,
Lev 23 states:
5 In the
fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
6 And on the
fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord:
seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
In other words,
Passover was not Sabbath, and Days of ULB starts after Passover, and the first
day of Days of ULB was the High Sabbath.
Of course, there
was a great possibility to call the whole 8 days as Passover.
Your Info about
the separate counting system for the day-night between Northern and
GE, If you have
never read the Book, < Coming Prince > by Sir Robert Anderson, you can
forget about that issue.
GE:
I did not say
anything regarding or <disregarding>
I say while you
pretend you properly regard Anderson’s book, you are the one who raise
questions and doubts about things not at all the subject of Anderson’s
book while disregarding his findings as far as you go.
Here is what you
‘found’, <<regarding Anderson’s
book>> : <<<Indeed, if
the passover was Monday in 32 AD, we can hardly include the Passover Sabbath
and Weekly Sabbath( Regular Sabbath) while Jesus was in the tomb. … I may have
to re-consider 31 AD too. Then I have to check the starting day from 445BC as
well.>>>
Now I have not
read his book, but this I can state without hesitation or doubt that
Anderson never wrote a paragraph, a sentence, a word, about anything like
<<the passover was>> or <<<we can hardly include the Passover Sabbath
and Weekly Sabbath( Regular Sabbath)>> or <<while Jesus was in the tomb>>>.
I can bet
And that
Seriously now, ARE
YOU OK IN YOUR HEAD?
If you think
nothing is wrong upstairs, think again, because these absurdities so far,
sprout from your real insanity --- the insanity of your AXIOMATIC
PRESUPPOSITION of a false and non-existing dogmatic ‘principle’ that <<NO WORK shall be done on ‘ceremonial’ and
the weekly sabbaths>>.
It is this
ridiculous misconception of the Torah’s instructions with regard to the
passover which make you feel Joseph could not have BURIED Jesus on the
passover-sabbath and THEREFORE --- and for nothing in the universe
else --- he had to have buried the body the day before the
passover-sabbath.
It is also due to
THIS fallacy of your religious system which forces you to dogmatize that <<the women bought and prepared the spices>>
on an imaginary day between the passover’s sabbath and the weekly
Sabbath.
SO YOU SEARCHED
HMNA UNTIL you found what was indispensible for your farcical religious
almanac of the passover of the LORD, viz., a WEDNESDAY fourteenth day
of the Jewish First Month of the year.
Thus worked the
INSANE heads of ALL Wednesday Crossites to arrive at
the dates and days
and year they ASSUMED, but which Paul declared any who observe, shall be
accursed and Christ shall avail nothing for.
It is all
bogus legalist non-Scriptural VANITY of no work on any sabbath
day. That's its HEART AND FIBRE OF AIRINESS. “Of CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE OF
SABBATHS' FEAST” ALL BONE HAS BEEN SEVERED.
Leviticus 23:5,
“In the fourteenth day of the First Month mid-afternoon is the LORD’S passover
(killed).
6 And on the
fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast / Eating of unleavened bread unto
the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.”
In John’s words,
“the first night” unleavened bread was eaten, was “The Preparation”—“which was
(‘Friday’) the Fore-Sabbath”. John 19:31,39 Mark 15:42.
In other words, <<Days of ULB started>>, “evening”,
“the first night” and Feast of passover (Abib 15 the day after Abib 14 on which
“they killed the passover”).
It was not the
Sabbath the Seventh Day of the week, but the “great day sabbath” which happened
to fall on “The Preparation” the Sixth Day (‘Friday’).
Of course, this
means the whole passover lasted 8 days. One needs to be able to count 1 plus 7
= 8 to <confirm> it; he does
not have to depend on Josephus or on doctors in theology.
<<Your Info about the separate counting system
for the day-night between Northern and
Thanks.
Eli:
Hi Dr. Cassidy,
It is a great
pleasure to read your article here.
I recall Sir
Robert Anderson calcualted the 173,880 days since the building of
These days, I read
Mark 16:9 which may be considered as the only phrase where the time of
resurrection is mentioned, and find it doesn't say about the time of
resurrection, but the time of discovery of risen savior or when Jesus showed
himself to Mary Magdalene.
I believe Passover
was not holiday as Jews killed the Lamb, and the next day is the High Sabbath
of Days of ULB. Jesus was
killed on
Passover.
Jesus rested in
the tomb during the High Sabbath.
I will continue to
comment later.
Bye now.
TCassidy:
See [Cut] for
a chart of the dates in question.
The information
contained in the above chart was provided by the United States Naval
Observatory. [Cut]
Eli:
Dr. Cassidy,
Thank you soooo
much!
That is exactly
what I wanted to have!
You have got me
such one soooo easily! Thank you!
Actually I have
been to London UK, last month as my daughter lives there, and she suggested me to
go to Greenwich, but I was not sure whether I can have a chance to discuss
about this kind of calculation around 28-34 AD and 06-03 BC, then I gave up
going there.
Instead I checked
with
At British Library
I have seen Aleph, Lisbon Masora 1492, Lindisfarne English Gospel, etc.
Aleph was hardly
readable and had many corrections.
I may need some
time to read and understand your information about Crucifixion Pasover date.
Indeed, if the
passover was Monday in 32 AD, we can hardly include the Passover Sabbath and
Weekly Sabbath( Regular Sabbath) while Jesus was in the tomb.
I may have to
re-consider 31 AD too. Then I have to check the starting day from 445 BC as
well.
This may take
quite a time.
Dr. Cassidy, Thank
you so much again!
GE:
<<<On Friday the ladies went shopping - to buy
the spices>>>
Please place the
Scripture and give its place where it is written, <<On Friday the ladies went shopping - to buy the spices>>.
That would be just
civil.
<<<The first day of Passover was always a
special high Sabbath>>>
The first day of
passover never ever was <<a special
high Sabbath>> and very seldom just a Sabbath.
Re: <<<3 days and 3 nights in the grave,>>>
That is
un-Scriptural.
Read Revelation
22:19.
Re: <<<arose after sundown>>>
Denied.
Scripture?
None!
Re: <<<The first day of Passover was on 15th day>>>
Denied.
Scripture?
None!
Let me help you a
little bit, [I mean, there’s a LOT more!], Exodus 12:5,15b,18a.
Re: <<<Wednesday sundown through Saturday sundown,
3 days and 3 nights in the grave, and arose after sundown on what we call
Saturday, but what a Jew would call the first day of the week, or Sunday. Three
days and three nights in the tomb>>>
If that were true,
you have Jesus FIVE days in death = 5 days = four days
and four nights : DEAD.
Rejectable!
Re: <<<The Jews calculated the beginning and ending
of a day differently, even among themselves.>>>
What does that
help us?
The Jews may have
<<calculated the beginning and
ending of a day differently, even among themselves>> --- the
Bible does not.
Re: <<<Now we know from our knowledge of geography
that
That may be to
your, <<knowledge of geography>>
and man's inherent xenophobia. It is <knowledge>
and conclusion not reached from the Scriptures.
In any case what
has that to do with the passover's annual dates?
If people clash it
does not say God's Word clashes with itself.
Re: <<<So, it is simple to see that Jesus and the
disciples considered Passover (the preparation day) to have started at sunrise
and to have ended at sunrise the next day!>>>
It could have been
simple if only you simply could supply the Scriptures.
But don't let me
let you loose heart completely : The Scriptures DO contain a sunrise reckoning
of the day. And let me try encourage you with some truth, it is with regard to
the passover that the Bible contains a sunrise beginning for days.
But it is not in
the Gospels or New Testament; it was in
Eli:
GE, I hope you and
others here respect Dr Cassidy's contribution here as he has very much
expertise in this study. I know him as a respectable scholar having the sound
biblical stance, proven from many debates.
TCassidy:
Don't bother. I
put GB on "ignore" a long time ago. I am not sure,
but I think he may
drink.
Eli:
Dr. Cassidy,
Thanks anyway.
BTW, I sometimes
used to quote your article about the Church History, In Defense of Biblical
Churches.
That is based on
very much correct stance, with the view to the True Biblical Churches and is
quite concise but contains much information.
Thank you very
much for such precious article too.
What Dr
It may be quite
true that Galileans had the day counting practice different from that of
That helps us to
understand some contradictions between the gospels. Also, counting 3 days and 3
nights from Wednesday thru Saturday is not new but quite strongly supported by
Messianic Jews.
GE:
<<contradictions between the gospels>>?!
Why? Because you
need contradictions for your self-conceived draconian drogmas.
Like you need all
those names (above) because the Gospels <<contradict one another>>.
Contradictions
need names of men who need contradictions to be named.
JUST NEVER THE
BARE SCRIPTURES BECAUSE WHAT SHALL I HAVE TO SAY IF IT MUST BE JUST
SCRIPTURES!?
Re: <<<Therefore, by God's Sovereign design, Jesus
could celebrate the Passover with the disciples, and still be taken for
sacrifice at the very time the southern Jews were sacrificing their lambs.>>>
So you say it was
God's design only those evil <<northern Jews>> should crucify and
kill Jesus? ... Sorry! only those southern evil Jews?
<<<It is obvious that when He ate the meal with
the disciples>>>
It is obvious He
ate not with the disciples!
Rstrats:
Since it has again
been awhile, someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place
on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common
first century idiomatic language will know of some writing.
Perhaps a further
rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear: Whenever the three days and
three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with
6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using
common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that
shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that
is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of
nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a
part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one
of the specific number of nights? If it is using common idiomatic language,
there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make that
assertion.
Vooks:
You can start with
Acts 10.
Acts 10:1-30 King
James Version (KJV)
10 There was a
certain man in
2 A devout man,
and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people,
and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth
hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him,
Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it,
Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a
memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose
surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the
sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. 7 And when the angel
which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants,
and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8 And when he had
declared all these things unto them, he sent them to
Joppa. 9 On the
morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went
up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very
hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven
opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet
knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner
of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and
fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is
common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What
God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the
vessel was received up again into heaven. 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself
what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent
from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged
there. 19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold,
three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them,
doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 21 Then Peter went down to the men
which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye
seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? 22 And they said, Cornelius the
centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all
the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee
into his house, and to hear words of thee. 23 Then called he them in, and
lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain
brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And the morrow after they
entered into
25 And as Peter
was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped
him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And
as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that
is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath
shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 Therefore came I
unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for
what intent ye have sent for me? 30 And Cornelius said, Four days
ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my
house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Please pay
attention to the TIME element in this narrative for now.
1. V3- Cornelius
has a vision about 1500H, sends out his servants the same day
2. V9- they arrive
in Joppa the NEXT day around 1200H
3. V23- they
lodged and the NEXT day they left for
4. V24- they
arrived in
And finally,
5. V30- Cornelius
says he had a vision FOUR days ago. Can we identify these days?
Day #1 would be
when Cornelius had a vision at <1500H and sent off his messengers. Jewish
days ended at sunset so the day ended about 4 hours later.
Day #2 would be
the day they arrived and lodged at Joppa
Day #3 would be
the day they together with Peter left for
Day #4 would be
the day they arrived
So Cornelius
included the very day they arrived in sharing the timing of the vision as a
full day together with the day he sent them off.
Let's assume they
arrived in
Please note the
narrative has no 'days and nights' idiom.
Rstrats:
Noted, which means
that it is irrelevant to my request in the OP
Vooks:
But it serves very
important lessons chiefly being a part of a day is regarded as a full day in
normal speech.
Rstrats:
As regards the
Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but
when nights is added to days to yield the phrase 'x' days AND/OR 'x' night it
normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where day refers
to the light portion of a 24 hour period and night refers to the dark portion
of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has
ever presented any historical documentation that a phrase 'x' days AND/OR 'x'
nights was a first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean
something different than what the phrase means in English. A number of 6th day
crucifixion advocates try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is
using common Jewish idiomatic language. In order to say that it is employing a
common idiom, I'd think that there would need to be some examples from the
period to substantiate the claim.
Vooks:
Now, let's look at
a specific example of 'days and nights' idiom.
Esther 4:16,
5:1(KJV)
16 Go, gather
together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me,
and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens
will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according
to the law: and if I perish, I perish....
(KJV) 5 Now it
came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and
stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house:
and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the
gate of the house
Please note Esther
appeared before the King on the THIRD day. Third from what? The last day of the
fasting where she broke the fast of course. Supposing the fast lasted three
literal days and nights, and using the Acts 10 method of reckoning days. She
would have appeared before the King on the FOURTH day not third. To prove it,
let's try counting days inside a three literal days and nights period and tell
me when the last day/night would fall. Remember a days starts and ends at dusk.
Supposing the
fasting started on Monday morning. Monday morning and night, Tuesday the same
and Wednesday. The fasting would end on Thurdsay morning at the earliest. So
Thursday is our THIRD day. This makes Wednesday our SECOND day, Tuesday our
FIRST day. What do we do with Monday?
But if we reckon
'three days and three nights' to be 3 normal Jewish days, the Monday fast
terminates on Wednesday and on the same day she stands before the king
Strats:
I'm afraid I don't
understand your point as it applies to my request in the OP.
I don't see how
the Esther account absolutely cannot include at least a part of each one of
three daytimes and at least a part of each one of three night times.
BTW, "three
days, night or day" is not necessarily the same as "three days and
three nights".
Vooks:
Ok. Let's try
another approach.
Here is my logic;
1. Demonstrate
from scriptures that 'three days and three nights' EQUALLY means 'three days'
2. Demonstrate
that inside a literal three-days-and-three-nights period we would have OVER
three Jewish days
3. Demonstrate
from the scriptures that the resurrection Sunday was the third day since the
Passion and death of Jesus Christ, Saturday was the second day and Friday MUST
have been the first day, the day he was crucified
4. Following 1-3,
conclude that 'three days and three nights' as applied in regard to the death
and resurrection of our Lord, whatever meaning may be ascribed to the phrase is
NOT a literal three days and three nights as it would contradict #1 and #3
If this would
answer your question, please let me know so I can proceed
Darrell:
Sure: since both
days and nights are also used by the Lord to describe the
period He would
lie in the grave this verse illustrates that days and nights and days are both
used to refer to the same event. In other words, there is no demand on
Scripture to satisfy both periods of the day which fifth day believers like
myself have to spend great amounts of time trying to defend.
Quest over?
Good...glad I
could help.
Rstrats:
Fraid not. You
haven't shown any writing that shows an example from the first century or
before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number
of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely
couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of
days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.
GE:
You have been
hunting for an ‘answer’ to this silly and senseless ‘question’ of yours. You
and it are simply absurd; no, not absurd, because you are beyond absurd.
Darrell:
Rstrats,
lol...right. How long will you be stuck on this?
Strats:
So you agree that
you haven't shown any writing.
Until someone
provides writing from the first century or before which shows a period of time
that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number
of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a
part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one
of the specific number of nights.
Darrell:
The verse offered
is first century. We know it had to include at least two nights and at least
parts of three days.
That meets the
criteria you demand.
.
Strats:
I don't see how
Mark 8:31 is an example of writing that shows the use of a phrase which states
a specific number of daytimes and/or a specific nunber of night times for an
event where at least a part of each one of the daytimes and at least a part of
each one of the night times couldn't have been involved. I wonder if you might
explain why you think that it does?
Darrell:
Enjoy your
thread.
Strats:
So you agree that
you haven't shown any writing.
Vooks:
Refer to my
previous post. One way of identifying a metaphor is by proving that it's
literal mean would be utterly absurd/impossible. The other one is demonstrating
common usage of the same. An example would be 'raining cats and dogs'. We can
prove that it has NEVER rained animals (it did in
Shall we prove
that 'three days and three nights' is an idiom and not literal 72 hours ?
GE:
Who are <we>?
You haven't shown
a thing. “Three days and three nights” is / are three days and three
nights.
Vooks:
Yes and they are
also THREE days. Any period covered by three literal days and three literal
nights has MORE than THREE days by Jewish reckoning
GE:
BUT NOT ANY three
days and three nights.
Vooks:
Agreed, the three
days and three nights are THREE days Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
GE:
They must be the
three days and three nights OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH’S “THREE DAYS THICK
DARKNESS” the 14th, 15th and 16th days of the First Month retrospectively because
Jesus refers to them as fulfilled through Himself.
Vooks:
MUST? Presumptions
galore
Did they slit
Jesus throat as well seeing he was a Passover lamb?
GE:
Beautiful how you
slit your own throat, mate. Saved me the mess.
Vooks:
Sarcasm won't add
reason nor logic to your illogical position.
Do you have a
family? What was your son's FIRST day at school? The day he reported or the day
after?
Your own
journalism must be a bunch of illiterates [Cut]
Your theories that
because lambs were slain on a particular day, Jesus MUST have been
slain on the same day are hogwash. You should be interrogating your 'MUST' in
the first place. Should you start with your presumptions or facts staring at
you?
GE:
...making an
overkill on yourself...
What is
it that <<covered the time>>
in the “three days and three nights” found in “ALL the Prophets” some way or
another? That is where you have gone off the tar already.
And why should
<<the time covered>> by
whatever be <<meaning the phrase
MUST have been idiomatic>>?
Listen Vooks, Luke
24:21 does not speak of <<the third day>>!
Vooks:
Luke 24:21
(KJV)
But we trusted
that it had been he which should have redeemed
GE:
Luke 24:21 says “the
third day SINCE these things were done”, And THAT, makes “today” - Sunday,
the fourth day if “these things that were done” and the day they were done on
are INCLUDED.
Vooks:
Nonsensical as you
can get. How can the third day be the fourth day? Exactly what's the point in
mentioning the days in the first place
GE:
But they are NOT
included. “These things that were done” were done PRIOR to “the third day SINCE”
them.
Vooks:
They were not done
PRIOR. That's your PRESUMPTION. You are reading your own bias into the
scripture. We are busy ascertaining WHEN Jesus died and you are refuting Holy
Spirit
Show me ANY
example from scriptures where the counting is done, where 'first',
'second'.....appears and the day it begins is omitted. On the other hand, you
have countless examples showing you that counting begins the very material
day/year.
God starts
creation TODAY and the next day is the SECOND day. You take your son to school
TODAY and the next day will be his SECOND day in school.
GE:
I cannot believe
that you don't have ulterior motives by pretending the word “SINCE” does not
modify “the third day”!!
Vooks:
SINCE does not
modify nothing. How else would the statement make sense if you are given the
time element (third day) WITHOUT explaining WHEN the period began?
Try and rephrase
that statement omitting the word 'SINCE'.
GE:
I do not believe
you!
Vooks:
Believe scriptures
instead, it's more important and you are busy running away from them.
GE:
Because “on the
First Day of the week—TODAY” -- 'Sunday' – was in fact “the third day SINCE /
AFTER / AWAY FROM =DISCONNECTED FROM these things happened”— “these things”,
namely, “how the rulers DELIVERED Him and CRUCIFIED Him”.
Sunday was the
third day SINCE they crucified Him and He had died;
Saturday was the
second day SINCE they crucified Him and He had died;
Friday was the
first day SINCE they crucified Him and He had died;
Thursday was the
day THAT they crucified Him and He had died ON.
THEREFORE Luke
24:21b implies that Jesus
DIED on the
Fifth Day of the week – ‘Thursday’; was
BURIED on the
Sixth Day of the week -- “The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” – ‘Friday’;
and
ROSE from the
dead:- quote: “ON THE SABBATH” Matthew 28:1.
Vooks:
You are one
insincere man. If Sunday was the Third, Saturday the Second and Friday the
First, there is NO room for Day zero.
Look at the
creation account. The first day of creation is .....the first day
In Joshua 6, read
verse 14. The SECOND day was the.....second day of encompassing
Perfect example is
Exodus
Exodus 19:10-11
(ASV)
10 And Jehovah
said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and
to-morrow, and let them wash their garments, 11 and be ready against the third
day; for the third day Jehovah will come down in the sight of all the
people upon mount Sinai
So 'to-day' is the
FIRST day of sanctification, 'to-morrow' is the SECOND day, and the day after
tomorrow is the THIRD day.
If Sunday was the
third day, Saturday was the second and Friday was the day of crucifixion
GE:
“Three days and
three nights” as a phrase in any language is what it is, ‘literal’ for the
reality of three days and three nights.
It is no ‘metaphor’
and it is no ‘idiom’.
.
Darrel:
Refer to my
previous post, Vooks, and show how anything you say here is relevant to what I
said. lol
I don't need to
prove it a figure of speech because i it should have been clear in the previous
post that both three days and three days and nights was used to describe the
duration the Lord would be in, dare I say it?
The heart of the
earth.
We could argue
that the absence of reference doesn't negate the nights, but why would we? We
are told what day He was crucified on, and if I am not mistaken, that has been
addressed already and I have no interest in going through that with the
OP...again. If we pinpoint the day...no need to get mired down in
nonessentials, right?
If you see
something in my timing you disagree with, let me know. Be glad to look at it
with you.
Vooks:
I was addressing
rstrats his hunt for an extra-biblical usage of 'three days and three nights'
is irrelevant and whatever purpose it is supposed to serve can be demonstrated
from the scriptures
Rstrats:
Doesn't need to be
extra-biblical. Scripture will be fine.
Darrell:
I think your
presentation of Exodus 19:10-11 definitely closes the case.
Outstanding.
Rstrats:
Exactly what do
you think the "case" is with regard to the request in the OP?
.
Darrell:
No clue...it keeps
changing.
Strats:
The request in the
OP asks for documentation that shows that the phrase "x" days and
"x" nights was ever used in the first century or before when it
didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts of
the "x" nights? That request is clearified in post #36 and further
clearified in post #131. What is there about that request that causes you to
say that you have no clue?
Vooks:
Supposing your kid
bro goes missing. He is found two hours later. An hour AFTER he is found, you
are still busy asking everyone the color of the shirt he had on when he went
missing because it is important in finding him. you are so furious
that nobody can tell the color of the shirt. That perfectly describes you.
Rstrats:
Again, I fail to
see the relevance of your analogy.
Vooks:
You don't need
extrabiblical literature on 'three days and three nights' to prop your weak
position.
Strats:
Again, I'm not
limiting my request to extrabiblical literature. Scriptural examples will be
fine.
Vooks:
Please share with
me scriptural application of 'nights and days' phrase where it is obviously
literal as opposed to idiomatic
In any case,
throwing the case back at you, do you know of the application of the phrase in
a literal sense outside scriptures in the first century?
Strats:
No; but then I
haven't looked for any.
Vooks:
Why not?
We have shown
beyond doubt that the time referred to by the phrase in the gospels is much
less than time covered in a literal 3 days and 3 nights meaning the phrase MUST
have been idiomatic.
Strats:
I'm not saying
anything about a literal 3 days and 3 nights - a full 72 hours. And I'm not
saying that it isn't idiomatic - it may be or it may not be. The question for
the purpose of this topic is about it being a common idiom. In order
for someone to say that it is common, there would have to be examples
to support that assertion.
Vooks:
Show us
application elsewhere that it is NOT idiomatic
Aha....common. How
many references do you need to demonstrate it was 'common'?
Look at the phrase
here by Josephus;
When Pilate
refused, they fell prostrate around his palace and for five whole days and
nights remained motionless in that position. [Cut]
And
Matthew 4:2
(KJV)
And when he had
fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred
Acts 20:31 (KJV)
Therefore watch,
and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every
one night and day with tears
Interesting this
Acts 20:31. Did Paul preach/warn continuously for 1,080 days and nights?
Eli:
30 A.D.
Wed. Mar. 22, 0*
Wed. Mar. 22, 8
p.m.
Fri. Mar. 24
Sat. Mar. 25
Fri. Apr. 7
31 A.D.
Fri. Mar. 23, 5
a.m.
Tues. Apr. 10, 2
p.m.
Wed. Apr. 11
Thurs. Apr.12
Wed. Apr. 25
32 A.D.
Sat. Mar. 22, 11
a.m.
Sat. Mar. 29, 10
p.m.**
Mon. Mar. 31
Tues. Apr. 1
Mon. Apr. 14
33 A.D.
Sun. Mar. 22, 5
p.m.
Fri. Mar. 20, 9
a.m.
Fri. Apr. 17, 9
p.m.**
Sat. Mar. 21
Sun. Apr. 19
Sun. Mar. 22
Mon. Apr. 20
Sat. Apr. 4
Sun. May 3
None of the days
around 30-33 AD for Passover was Friday.
If we count
173,880 days from Nissan month of 446 BC we reach 31 AD, resulting in Wednesday
April 25.
But If we count it
from 445 BC we may reach Monday of April 14, 32 BC
GE:
Simple logic
1. THIRD DAY IS
THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW
2. SUNDAY WAS THE
THIRD DAY SINCE PASSION
Strats:
What would the
first day since the passion have been?
Vooks:
Friday of course!
Strats:
After your reply,
I asked 7 friends/acquaintances (none of which were in each other's presence):
"If I said that today, Thursday, was the first day since I had a tooth
pulled, to what day would I be referring?" The answer was unanimous:
"Wednesday". So you seem to be a minority in your thinking.
Vooks:
They clearly are
unthinking lot.
Strats:
If I said that
today, Thursday, was the first day since I had a tooth pulled, to
what day would I be referring?
Vooks:
Your tooth would
have been plucked TODAY. If I took you to school tomorrow Friday, what's your
FIRST day in school, Friday or Saturday?
Strats:
Friday. But I fail
to see your analogy.
Vooks:
You wouldn't see
it if it knocked your teeth off.
If they took Jesus
to
Rstrats:
Naturally it would
be Friday.
Vooks:
Excellent. Now,
Friday would be FIRST day of what? First, Second, Third Don't exist in a
vacuum; if it is days, it has to be FIRST since something
Rstrats:
And then the first
day since they killed Him would be Saturday.
Vooks:
Now you are tying
yourself in knots. If Friday was the FIRST day since they killed him, how can
Saturday, the day after be FIRST day as well? Every time there is a reckoning
of time, it is ALWAYS since some fixed event, otherwise you won't make
sense.
There very day God
commenced creation is called the FIRST day. The next day is called the SECOND
day. This means that from the inspired scriptures, we reckon days from the very
date of an event and not the day after.
Could you please
share one scriptural instance where the day following an event is regarded as
the FIRST and not the SECOND day? I have shared several supporting my logic.
Support yours with scriptures.
There is enough
biblical proof that the third day is the day after tomorrow which obviously
means tomorrow is the second day and of course today is the first day. Working
backward means that the first day is the day before yesterday.
Examples;
Exodus 19:10-11
(ESV)
10 the Lord said
to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate
them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments 11 and
be ready for the third day. For on the third day the Lord will come down on
Leviticus 19:6
(ESV)
6 It shall be
eaten the same day you offer it or on the day after, and
anything left over until the third day shall be burned up with fire
Eli:
OT doesn't match
exactly with Crucifixion and Resurrection.
Vooks:
It was not
supposed to 'match' whatever that means but to illustrate a BASIC , COMMON and
SENSIBLE reckoning of time in the scriptures
Eli:
As for Luke, we
have to examine the translation of < Third> because it can mean <
after 3 days>.
Vooks:
Take all your time
my brother. I find it curious that suddenly you have developed a love for
everything Greek. Have you run into something contradicting your long held
beliefs?
Here is the Greek
for your ease of reference; [Cut]
Please share
whatever conclusions you draw after your Greek treasure hunt
Eli:
Do you think Jesus
was in the earth for 3 nights and 3 days if He
was killed on
Friday and resurrected early in the morning of Sunday?
Vooks:
I don't think, I
believe whatever scriptures tell me. You too should
Eli:
Friday Night,
Saturday Night. Then only 2 nights
Friday Day for 30
minutes and Saturday Day time : Is it 2 days or 1 and 1/12 day? Is it 3 days ?
Vooks:
It is THREE days
by Jewish reckoning.
Here is some
simple logic for you;
1. 'Three days and
three nights'= 'three days'
2. Any three
literal days and three literal nights duration/period covers more than 'three
days'. Here is biblical proof of the same, 72 hours called 'four days' [Cut]
Eli:
Is this
calculation applied to Jonas in the big fish?
Vooks:
Follow the above
logic and answer yourself
Eli:
Again, none of the
years around 31-32 AD had the Passover on Friday.
Vooks:
We can waste time
arguing about the year Jesus died, for which we would step outside scriptures
or simply submit our prejudices and nonsensical hubris to the Word of God.
There is no scholarly consensus on the exact year
GE:
Post with some
merit (the last point e.g.), but demerits which cancel out every good thing in
it.
WHY?
Four reasons,
One,
The writer has no
idea of IDIOM, in this case, that 'after three days' in Matthew 28:63,
'meta treis hehmeras' is IDIOM for literal, “ON the third day” not only in
Greek, but in more than one modern languages.
Two,
The writer has no
idea of METAPHOR or FIGURATIVE language, in this case, accepting the 'thought',
that <<<Jesus was in theearth>>> for “three (literal) days
and three (literal) nights” while the actual phrase reads “in the HEART of the
earth” which obviously is figurative and not literal, language.
Three,
Most important:
The writer not only ignores, but flatly refuses to recognise the prophetic
figure for the “three days” and “third day according to the Scriptures” OF THE
PASSOVER in Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch as the specific, “ESSENTIAL,
SUBSTANTIAL, BONE-DAY” of the last Suffering-Passover of Yahweh in Jesus Christ
the Passover Lamb of God.
Four,
The writer tries
to explain the “three days and three nights” in ISOLATION while not taking into
account the COMPLETE bulk of Scriptures that follow Jesus’ Last Passover
precisely his whole Last Week and whole journey in Passover-Suffering “three
days and three nights” long: 1) step by step; 2) day by day and 3) HOUR BY
HOUR.
Vooks:
Jesus died
DO YOU AGREE WITH
ME THAT THE THIRD DAY IS THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW?
Rstrats:
Yes, if the first
day is today.
Vooks:
Working in
reverse.
Do you also agree
that if today is the THIRD day, the FIRST day is the day before yesterday?
Strats:
Yes.
Vooks:
Excellent
So if Jesus rose
again the THIRD day(obviously third day since he died not since he
was born!), is there any other conclusion you can draw other than he rose the
day following the day after he died?
1 Corinthians 15:3
(KJV)
And that he was
buried, and that he rose again the third
day according
to the scriptures
Specifically if
Sunday is the THIRD day, what would be the FIRST day?
Strats:
Friday would be
the first day. And Monday would be the 3rd day since Friday.
Vooks:
English may not be
your first language but surely you can't be this obtuse.
In what sense would
Friday be FIRST day?
Or if Friday would
the the FIRST day, wouldn't Saturday, Sunday and MONDAY be the SECOND ,THIRD
and FOURTH days respectively?
How then can
Monday be BOTH FOURTH and THIRD day with
regard to the same
event?
More proof that
the THIRD day is the day after tomorrow
Leviticus 7:16-17
(ASV)
16 But if the
sacrifice of his oblation be a vow, or a freewill-offering, it shall be eaten
on the day that he offereth his sacrifice; and on the
morrow that which remaineth of it shall be eaten: 17 but that which
remaineth of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be
burnt with
fire.
Luke 24:21
(ASV)
21 But we hoped
that it was he who should redeem
Luke 24:45-46
(ASV)
45 Then opened he
their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; 46 and he said unto
them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again
from the dead the third day;
Darrell:
The verse I quoted
is a first century statement that shows that the
Lord's meaning
does not have to include three literal days and nights, as it was said here...
Matthew 12:40 King
James Version (KJV)
40 For as Jonas
was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man
be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Here it is
again...
Mark 8:31 King
James Version (KJV)
31 And he began to
teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the
elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three
days rise again.
John 2:18-21 King
James Version (KJV)
18 Then answered
the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou
doest these things?
19 Jesus answered
and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and
in three days I
will raise it up.
20 Then said the
Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up
in three days?
21 But he spake of
the temple of his body.
It is by comparing
His statements that we don't have to quibble. It could be argued that He meant
four days, because, after all, He does say after three days...doesn't he?
So how does this
not answer the question?
Rstrats:
Many sixth day of
the week crucifixion advocates say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish
idiomatic language. In order for them to legitimately assert that it was
common, they would have to know of examples that show that it indeed was a
common way of referring to elapsed periods of time, i.e., where a forecasted
daytime and/or a night time could be counted when no part of the daytime and/or
no part of the night time was actually involved. I don't see where you have
provided such examples.
Darrell:
Maybe that is due
to being so enthralled with what sixth day advocates have to say you have lost
the ability to compute what I have said?
Rstrats:
The answer to your
question is no. I have indeed understood your comments. It's just that you
haven't provided any writing that shows a phrase being used which says that a
daytime or a night time was to be involved with an event when the actual event
couldn't have included at least a part of the daytime or at least a part of the
night time.
Vooks:
Neither have you
'any writing that shows a phrase being used which says that a daytime or a
night time was to be involved with an event when the actual
event MUST have included at least a part of the daytime or at least a
part of the night time.'
Darrell:
The Lord also says
three days. What's not to understand He was not demanding three days and
nights?
Rstrats:
Why did He say
three nights if He knew it was only going to be for two nights?
Vooks:
Because 'three
days and three nights' means three days and three days don't need three days
and three nights duration
Darrell:
And Vooks has quoted
the Law and shown three days can entail the time of a day until the following
third day which does not include three nights?
Rstrats:
Now here I don't
understand your question.
Vooks:
Attempt
comprehending my posts
Darrell:
Can you just tell
me why you spend so much time with this?
Rstrats:
I spend a lot of
time on a number of things. For this one, Im simply curious to know if there is
any proof that Matthew 12:40
is
using common Jewish idiomatic language.
.
Vooks:
What's your
definition of 'common' ?
Darrell:
What other issues
interest you, RStrats?
GE:
The crux of your
arguing, Rstrats, simply is, Is the phrase “three days and three nights”
idiomatic?
It is not. It is
plainly literal. End.
Rstrats:
No, that is not
the crux. The crux is having those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common
Jewish idiomatic language to provide examples proving that it is common.
Vooks:
The crux actually
is you to prove that as applied to the death and resurrection of Jesus it can't
possibly be idiomatic
Rstrats:
BTW, what do you
think it is that I am arguing?
Darrell:
Strats, You will
have to be more specific as to my error for me to answer beyond that.
GE:
Strats, No, I give
up. I really can't make it out.
Strats:
So how can you say
I'm arguing something if you are not aware of the argument?
.
GE:
Now you say the
'TDsATNs' is <idiomatic>; now
you say it's <common>.
Strats:
What!! How on
earth do you get that from anything I've said?
GE:
I cannot make YOU
out. I have no problems with making TDsATNs out for literal.
It is used only
two times in all of the Scriptures. Idiomatic use must be frequent use and must
be colloquial. It ain't either.
Vooks:
Do you also agree
that if today is the THIRD day, the FIRST day is the day before yesterday?
Strats:
Yes.
GE:
So, HERE ARE THE
RELEVANT SCRIPTURES
1A) HERE BEGINS
the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” –
the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Jesus
ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell)
:–
Mk14:12/17;
Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.
1B) HERE BEGINS
the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” –
the passover–Scriptures :–
in which Jesus was
delivered and crucified :–
Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14
1C) HERE is the
LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the
FIRST of the
“three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Jesus DIED
and was deserted by all :–
Mk15:37–41;
Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30
2A) HERE BEGINS
the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
the day whereon
Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
Mk15:42/Mt27:57,
Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.
“The Feast of
Unleavened Bread” Exodus 12:15b
= “The Preparation
…
= “… which is the
Fore-Sabbath …
= “… for THAT DAY
WAS great day sabbath” of passover.
= FRIDAY!
= Abib 15,
Thursday night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....
2B) HERE is the
NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Joseph
begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law –
undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:–
“the first night”
unleavened bread was eaten John 19:39
Mk15:43–46a;
Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40
2C) HERE is the
LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to
the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Joseph and
Nicodemus had laid the body and had closed the tomb; and men and women left for
home :–
Mk15:46b–47;
Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42
3A) HERE BEGINS
the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
THAT JESUS WOULD
RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
Lk23:56b
“The day after the
sabbath” OF THE PASSOVER Leviticus
23:11,15
= Abib 16, Friday
night and Saturday day = Seventh Day Sabbath....
3B) HERE is the
MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
Pilate ordered a
guard “for the third day” :–
Mt27:62–66
3C) HERE is “IN the
Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according
to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
First Sheaf Wave
Offering Before the LORD :–
Mt28:1–4.
__________________________________________________
Abib 17, Saturday
night and Sunday day = First Day ....
4A) HERE begins
the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth day of the passover season) :–
that Jesus WOULD
APPEAR on :–
Mk16:1, “When the
Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....”
4B) HERE is the
EVENING of this day,
Jn20:1–10 Mary
sees the DOOR STONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been
OPENED);
4C) HERE is the
NIGHT of this day,
Lk24:1–10
“DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve
the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY);
Mk16:2–8 “very
early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled
terrified and told NO ONE”.
4D) Here is
sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
Jn20:11f, Mk16:9
“Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the
gardener (sunrise);
“Risen, early (sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary
....”
Mt28:5–10 “The
angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell ....
Jesus met them” (after sunrise).
Mt28:11–15 Guard
to high priests.
The
Gospels in clear and completely unambiguous chronological sequence follow every
of the "three days" from beginning until ending of Jesus' Last
Passover-SUFFERING.
Christ's Last
Passover-SUFFERING sets the path and the pace for the Old Testament passover to
follow in, at, and after.
The OT Passover of
Yahweh and Jesus' Passover of Yahweh-SUFFERING must and will be seen to
correlate and synchronize and agree PERFECTLY.
It is the most
obvious thing in the Scriptures, the Prophets and Law of the
PASSOVER, typified Christ in his Last Suffering.
I have not
encountered any acknowledgement of or attention paid to this GRAND FACT
concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ in my forty years of debating the many
'issues' attached to Jesus' Last Passover-Suffering --- no, not once!
Vooks:
I have never
encountered such grand obtuseness in all my life
GE:
… of pampering grander
obtuseness.
Vooks:
Watching pacman,
remind me to respond to your irrelevant glib in an hour's time
Eliyahu
OT doesn't match
exactly with Crucifixion and Resurrection.
As for Luke, we
have to examine the translation of < Third> because it can mean <
after 3 days>.
Do you think Jesus
was in the earth for 3 nights and 3 days if He was killed on Friday and
resurrected early in the morning of Sunday?
Friday Night,
Saturday Night. Then only 2 nights
Friday Day for 30
minutes and Saturday Day time : Is it 2 days or 1 and 1/12 day? Is it 3 days ?
Is this
calculation applied to Jonas in the big fish?
Again, none of the
years around 31-32 AD had the Passover on Friday.
GE:
Re: <<<OT doesn't match exactly with Crucifixion
and Resurrection.>>>
A Priori Absolute
NONSENSE!
Re: <<<As for Luke, we have to examine the
translation of <Third> because it can mean <after 3 days>.>>>
A Priori Absolute
NONSENSE!
Re: <<<Jesus was in the earth>>>
A Priori Absolute
NONSENSE!
Re: <<<3 nights and 3 days if He was killed on
Friday and resurrected early in the morning of Sunday?>>>
Correct, it is a
priori absolute NONSENSE!
Re: <<<Friday Night, Saturday Night. Then only 2
nights>>>
Correct; it is a
priori absolute NONSENSE!
Re: <<<Friday Day for 30 minutes and Saturday Day
time : Is it 2 days or 1 and 1/12 day? Is it 3 days ?>>>
Correct; it is
not; it is a priori absolute NONSENSE!
Re: <<<Is this calculation applied to Jonas in the
big fish?>>>
Nonsensical
‘question’.
Re: <<<Again, none of the years around 31-32 AD had
the Passover on Friday.>>>
Irrelevant
nonsensical observation.
Vooks:
Excellent. Now,
Friday would be FIRST day since what?
Rstrats:
It would be the
first day since Thursday.
Vooks:
Now you are tying
yourself in knots. If Friday was the FIRST day since they killed him...
Rstrats:
Where did I say
that Friday was the first day since they killed Him?
GE:
Very clever,
Rstrats, Friday was the first day since they killed Him! You just won't say it
openly!
Why not, Rstrats?!
Vooks:
Could you please
share one scriptural instance where the day following an event is regarded as
the FIRST and not the SECOND day...
Rstrats:
We're talking
about the first day since an event took place and not just the first
day. If an event takes place on Tuesday, then the first day following the event
would be Wednesday.
Vooks:
So if Jesus rose
again the THIRD day(obviously third day since he died not since he was born!),
is there any other conclusion you can draw other than he rose the day following
the day after he died?"
Rstrats:
Yes there is. We
have 4 verses that are specific regarding the
phrase "the
third day". There is Matthew 12:40 which says that 3 night times were
involved (this could only happen with 4 calendar days); …
GE:
Rubbish! No wonder
you are so afraid to come into the open with your fraud!
Rstrats
…there is Luke
24:21 which says that the first of the week was the third
day since these things happened, so assuming the last thing was the
crucifixion, 4 calendar days would have to have been involved; and then there
is Matthew 27:63 and Mark 8:31 which say after 3 days. So it must be implied
that the phrase "the third day" is referring to the third day after
the crucifixion.
GE:
Subtle fraud! It
is not at all <<<implied that
the phrase "the third
day"
is referring to the third day after the crucifixion.>>>
There is no such phrase as <<the
third day>> in Luke 24:21! It is the clause "today ... on the
First day of the week ... is the third day SINCE" = <<<after the crucifixion>>> …:
AFTER!
Fraud Fraud
Fraud!!! Fraud supported by your FALSE assumption of <<<4 calendar days>>>.
All your years
long secret obsessiveness with your austere phrasings of your framed <question> has come to light exactly
as any person in his right mind could have foretold and I in fact have
foretold.
Vooks:
In what sense
would Friday be FIRST day?"
Rstrats:
In a correct
sense. If Sunday is the third day in a three day sequence, then Friday would be
the first day in the sequence.
Vooks:
...if Friday would
the the FIRST day, wouldn't Saturday, Sunday and MONDAY be the SECOND, THIRD
and FOURTH days respectively?"
Rstrats:
Yes.
Vooks:
How then can
Monday be BOTH FOURTH and THIRD day with regard to the same event?"
Rstrats:
Monday is the
fourth day in a 1,2,3,4 day sequence with Friday being the 1st day in the
sequence and at the same time it is the third day since Friday. Saturday
would be the first since Friday, Sunday would be the second day since Friday
and Monday would be the third day since Friday.
Vooks:
Please share with
me scriptural application of 'nights and days' phrase where it is obviously
literal as opposed to idiomatic
Rstrats:
I don't know of
any, if by "literal" you mean a full 12 hours for daytimes and a full
12 hours for night times.
Vooks:
Why not?"
Rstrats:
Because I haven't
had an interest in that particular issue.
Vooks:
Aha....common. How
many references do you need to
demonstrate it was
'common'?"
Rstrats:
As a minimum there
would have to be at least two, although I think that most would understand the
word to mean something more than that.
Vooks:
Look at the phrase
here by Josephus; When Pilate refused, they fell prostrate around his palace
and for five whole days and nights remained motionless in that position...And
Matthew 4:2 (KJV) And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was
afterward an hungred"
Rstrats:
And your point
would be?
Vooks:
Acts 20:31 (KJV)
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to
warn every one night and day with tears more than that. Interesting this Acts
20:31. Did Paul preach/warn continuously for 1,080 days and nights?"
Rstrats:
It seems highly
unlikely. But can you show for sure that at least a portion of each one of the
1,080 days and at least a portion of each one of the 1,080 nights absolutely
wasn't somehow involved?
GE:
You are a FAKE,
Rstrats! Nothing than a very incompetent FAKE! JUST LIKE YOUR SHADOW OPPONENT
VOOKS.
Rstrats:
Gerhard Ebersoehn,
re: "...Friday was the first day since they
killed Him!"
If by Friday you
mean the 6th day of the week, then that would only be true if the crucifixion
took place on the 5th day of the week. However, there are a number of folks who
think that it took place on the 4th day of the week.
re: "You just
won't say it openly! Why not, Rstrats [sic] ?!"
If you're asking
why I haven't said here that the crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the
week it's because I'm not convinced of that.
GE:
Try your
grandiloquence on someone else, Samie. I have never been impressed by your
pretending.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2226936&posted=1#post2226936
15 05 25